Mystical Theology: Introducing the Theology and Spiritual Life of the Orthodox Church
“Mystical Theology: Introducing the Theology and Spiritual Life of the Orthodox Church”, with Prof. Christopher Veniamin
Mystical Theology: Introducing the Theology and Spiritual Life of the Orthodox Church, with particular reference to the Holy Bible and the witness of the Church Fathers, past and present. Available Units thus far:
Unit 1: Introduction: Holy Scripture, Greek Philosophy, Philo of Alexandria (Season 3)
Unit 2: Irenaeus of Lyons (Season 3)
Unit 3: Clement the Alexandrian (Season 3)
Unit 4: Origen (Season 3)
Unit 5: Athanasius the Great (Season 3)
Unit 6: The Cappadocian Fathers (Season 3)
Unit 7: Augustine of Hippo (Season 3)
Unit 8: John Chrysostom (Season 3)
Unit 9: Cyril of Alexandria (Season 3)
Unit 14: Gregory Palamas (Season 1)
Unit 15: John of the Ladder (Season 4)
Unit 16: Silouan and Sophrony the Athonites (Season 2)
MISCELLANEOUS
Members-only: Special Editions (Season 5)
Empirical Dogmatics: The Theology of Fr. John Romanides (Season 6)
Recommended background reading: Christopher Veniamin, ed., Saint Gregory Palamas: The Homilies ; and The Enlargement of the Heart, by Archimandrite Zacharias ; Christopher Veniamin, ed., Saint Gregory Palamas: The Homilies (Dalton PA: 2022) ; The Orthodox Understanding of Salvation: "Theosis" in Scripture and Tradition (2016) ; The Transfiguration of Christ in Greek Patristic Literature (2022) ; and Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos, Empirical Dogmatics of the Orthodox Catholic Church: According to the Spoken Teaching of Father John Romanides, Vol. 1 (2012), Vol. 2 (repr. ed. 2020).
It is hoped that these presentations will help the enquirer discern the profound interrelationship between Orthodox theology and the Orthodox Christian life, and to identify the ascetic and pastoral significance of the Orthodox ethos contained therein.
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS: I wish to express my indebtedness to the spoken and written traditions of Sts Silouan and Sophrony the Athonites, Fr. Zacharias Zacharou, Fr. Kyrill Akon, Fr. Raphael Noica, Fr. Symeon Brüschweiler; Fr. John Romanides, Fr. Pavlos Englezakis, Fr. Georges Florovsky, Prof. Constantine Scouteris, Prof. George Mantzarides, Prof. John Fountoulis, Mtp Hierotheos Vlachos, Mtp Kallistos Ware, and Prof. Panayiotes Chrestou. My presentations have been enriched by all of the above sources. Responsibility however for the content of my presentations is of course mine alone. ©Christopher Veniamin 2024
Mystical Theology: Introducing the Theology and Spiritual Life of the Orthodox Church
Episode 44: Dionysius the Areopagite, Introduction, C. Veniamin
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In Episode 44 of our Mystical Theology, we begin our overview of the theology of Dionysius the Areopagite, one of the most challenging figures in the history of Christian doctrine.
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS: I wish to express my indebtedness to the spoken and written traditions of Mtp Kallistos Ware, Vladimir Lossky, Fr. John Romanides and Mtp Hierotheos Vlachos. Responsibility for the content of my presentations is of course mine alone. ©Christopher Veniamin 2026
Join the Mount Thabor Academy Podcasts and help us to bring podcasts on Orthodox theology and the spiritual life to the wider community.
Dr. Christopher Veniamin
Join The Mount Thabor Academy
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2232462/support
THE MOUNT THABOR ACADEMY (YouTube)
THE MOUNT THABOR ACADEMY (Patreon)
Print Books by MOUNT THABOR PUBLISHING
eBooks
Amazon
Google
Apple
Kobo
B&N
Further Info & Bibliography
The Professor's Blog
Further bibliography may be found in our Scholar's Corner
Contact us: info@mountthabor.com...
Dionysius: a Father of the Church
SPEAKER_02So we're going to begin our study of a very challenging chapter in patristic theology. I feel as though I keep saying that. Perhaps every chapter is challenging, and um perhaps also none more so than Dionysius the Areopagite. I think Origen is right up there in terms of how challenging it is to understand Origen and to place him within the Orthodox patristic tradition, but Origen is not in fact a father of the church. Dionysius the Areopagite is. So let me begin with some introductory remarks about Dionysius, and then I'll say some more about his work and the question of the authorship of the Dionysian corpus. And then I propose to read together with you a very short treatise known as the Mystical Theology, the Mystical Theology of Dionysius, and from there sort of use that as an anchor or a focal point from which to refer to his other works, his other treatises, and indeed his other letters. The first part of the introduction will be a theological introduction. The second part will be more who is Dionysius and what are the questions around the authorship of the corpus, and how do we place his works? And there's going to be a lot of crossover in doing this. And I think that I should begin by saying that there are two very different Dionysiuses. There is the Dionysius that was accepted by the West, which comes down to us basically through John Scotus Arogena, and there is the Dionysius who comes down to us in the East through Maximus the Confessor and Gregory Palmus, to name but a few. So Dionysius the Areopagite can be regarded as a philosophizing theologian, or he can be regarded as he is in the East, as an empirical theologian, one whose work is based on the prayer and liturgical life of the Orthodox Church. That of course is the tradition that we have received. So I want to begin, as I said earlier, by talking about the key themes in Dionysius by way of introduction, the themes of thearchy and hierarchy Thaar andarchia. So thearchy, which comes from the word Theos, God or Divine, and Archi, which means the beginning or principle or source of a thing. And then you have hierarchy, which comes from the Greek word hierarchia, as I mentioned, and that comes from Eros. The root word is Eros, which means sacred, and archi again means beginning, principle or source. An archi in Ologos in the beginning was the word Archi. It's a very important term, both theologically and philosophically, goes back centuries, millennia. The pre Socratics, the Milesians who are regarded as the first among Western philosophers, phales, they believed in, searching for that original principle that underlies reality. What is that permanent principle which underlines reality? So Arichi has a very long history. Dionysius bases his teaching on the divine oracles or words, the logia Tafia Logia, the divine words or oracles, that is, on words of the Old and New Testaments, on the prophets, on the words of Christ, on the words of the apostles, and especially on the words of Saint Paul, whose disciple he was. The theology of Saint Dionysius is the theology, as we intimated earlier, of Saint Maximus the Confessor and of Saint Gregory Palamus, two of the greatest fathers in the history of the Church. I want to follow a basic structure in this introduction, which was given by Metropolitan Hirotheus in a lecture that he gave some time ago, in which he said, First of all, it's important to understand that the whole vision of Dionysius is based on Theosis. Deification. This is evident when you read Dionysius from the perspective of Saint Maximus and Saint Gregory Palamas. Theosis as the source of deification, the Thearchia, the divine principle or beginning to which Dionysius refers in his works. There are four treatises, by the way, and nine letters, we'll come back to that later. But these four treatises, relatively short and nine letters, have played a crucial role in the history of Christian doctrine. So in his references to Thearchia, it becomes evident that what Dionysius is talking about is deification, and indeed Therhiah, the divine principle is the source of our deification. And he also refers to Prothos, which is procession, and Prothos procession, which is another key term, regards the whole universe as a kind of theophany of the procession that the Thear here, the source of our deification, is discerned or seen to make through the universe is a revelation of God. And the purpose and result of this manifestation is the deification of us human beings. The deification of man raising us to the likeness of Christ, in whose image we were created. Dionysius also speaks of the divine names Theonimius, names of the divine.
SPEAKER_01God actually has no name according to his essence. But at the same time, he is polyonymous. He has many names.
Names refer to divine energies (energy)
τὸ καλοκἄγαθον = “The Beautiful” (τὸ καλόν = paretymology of κάλλος) and “the Good” (τὸ ἀγαθόν)
SPEAKER_02Anonymous according to his essence, polyonymous in his processions, and thus has many names according to his energy, his grace, his light, his life, his eros, love, justice, kingdom, wisdom, power, divinity, peace, holiness, and so on. These names which we human beings have given to God, names which we use to describe the various activities of God's uncreated energies. These are names employed to describe the different operations of the uncreated energy in the singular of God Himself.
SPEAKER_01In his de Divinis Nominibus on the divine names, two names stand out in particular Docalon with one lambda is the beautiful. The other name is Do Agathon. That signifies the good.
Names given to God signify His activities (energies)
Cataphatic and Apophatic names
Reality of God beyond concepts
SPEAKER_02So we have the beautiful and the good. Dokalon is utilized by Dionysius as a synonym of Calus. This is a paratymology. So you have Docalon Dokalos. This can be good, it can also mean beautiful. At any rate, Duagathon is the good, and these terms go back to Plato and before. So they are philosophical terms which Dionysius uses in a theological way. The philosophers spoke of the highest existence as Dogalogarathon, with the beautiful and the good, tocalon and doarathon, joined with a ge, the beautiful and the good. So the beautiful and the good. So these are names which are given to God. Saint Gregory Palmas talks about this in his disputations with Gregoras. The names that we give to the activities, the energy of God, and the many ways by which God operates in the world in our lives. These are names which are given to God by us. There are cataphatic names and there are apophatic names given to God. Apophatic names such as aoratos invisible acataliptos incomprehensible aperigraptos indescribable Ipertheos we'll see this when we read the mystical theology. Dionysius loves to use the superlative iper hyper or the Latin equivalent super. So Ibertheos above and beyond Theos. What can be above and beyond Theos? Dionysius says whatever you have in your mind, whatever concept you have in your mind when you think of God, the reality of God is above and beyond that concept.
God “hyper-nous” - beyond “nous” (power of the heart)
SPEAKER_01God is not an idea in our minds. Ipernus again, above and beyond the nus.
SPEAKER_02God transcends the nus, yes. God transcends every aspect of our limited created nature, including our nus, which is most godlike. Some fathers identify the Nus as the very image of God in us. But the Nus in Orthodox patristic tradition is not capable by itself of beholding God, because it is created, and God is uncreated, and therefore only by the transformation of the Nus is it enabled to see God.
SPEAKER_01It is, as we've said before, the eye of the soul. It is, as we've said before, a power of the heart.
The “nous” and Greek philosophy
“Hyper-noësis” (beyond thought), “hyper-logiké” (beyond reason)
“Reason” in Western post-Augustinian theology
Ἡ θεαρχία, the Thearchy = reflection of the Light, reflects unity of all things with God
Τὸ ἀγαθόν, the Good, Goodness = sole cause of all things, which reveals the Light of God (φωτοδοσία)
Τὸ κάλλος, the Beautiful, Beauty - together with God’s Goodness, inspires return to God
Two movements: 1) through Goodness, God moves towards Creation, 2) through Beauty, Creation returns to God
SPEAKER_02But even the godlike nus in us is incapable of seeing God unless it is enabled to do so by our loving God. So our God is indeed Ipernus, which is not the case in philosophy. In the philosophy of Plato and others, the Nus is exalted and regarded as divine. In Plato's philosophy, it survives death. It is the only immortal part which survives death in Plato and also in Aristotle and then Middle and Neoplatonists later. At any rate, that's not the case in Orthodox theology. Every part of us is created and limited. Created in order to be filled with the life of God, yes, but once we have been transformed or enabled to do so by his grace. In other words, it's a pure gift. We do not have that capacity by nature, because we are not divine by nature. We may become divine, God like by grace, which is the purpose for which the Lord has brought us into existence. And so it almost goes without saying to add looking at names which Dionysius uses Ibernoisis God is above and beyond thought. God is above and beyond reason. What is the most exalted aspect of man in a post Augustinian Western theology? It's reason. Although to be fair to Saint Augustine, he understood that we had a noose, and he wasn't quite as rationalistic as those who followed him later. So Iberlogiki and so forth. The Thachia, the Thachi is a reflection of the light capital L and this reflects the unity of all things with God. Do Agathon, the good is the sole cause of all things Immonaiqui Edia Donbandon, which manifests the light of God, the energy of God, and Dionysius calls it photodosia, light poured over the whole universe by the Thearchy, by the Therchia. Don't worry, we're going to repeat these points in our presentation as it unfolds. So we'll say these things several times from different angles. So Dogalos beauty, so this is the pattern of the Dionysian vision. God, who is good, sends out his grace, his light, and causes his beauty to shine throughout the universe. And so this beauty is imparted to all beings. When man sees the beauty reflected in all things created by God, he's attracted and inspired by it. He's inspired to return to God. And so the world is a reflection of God's goodness and beauty. Later, God willing, we'll have an opportunity to explain why Dionysius describes these truths in this kind of language with these particular terms. So the world is a reflection of God's goodness and beauty, and as such, it is also a reflection of the unity of all things in God. Whatever the Thercha creates is a reflection of the light of the beauty of God. And so we have two movements, I mentioned them in passing earlier.
God both “eros” (passionate love) and “eraston” (that which is loved passionately in return)
SPEAKER_01First, with goodness, God moves towards creation. And second with Galos, that is beauty, the whole creation returns through beauty to God. And this is because God is both Eros and Easton.
SPEAKER_02Yes, Dionysius deliberately uses the word denoting passionate love.
God draws to Himself all things that are receptive of His love (Elkei ta tou erotos dektika)
SPEAKER_01As Eros, God moves towards man, and as Easton that which is loved passionately passionately loved, as Easton as beauty, God attracts all creation towards Himself Elki Tatu Erotos Viktiga. He draws to himself all things that are receptive of his love.
“Theonymiae”, the names of God, divine names (given to the energies of God by men)
The apophatic aspect: the “Gnophos” (thick dark cloud) = ousia, essence - cannot be approached
SPEAKER_02They're drawn to his love. So God is both Eros and Erason. We could say that as Eros God is good, and we could relate to Easton that which is loved with Gallos, in the sense that when created beings see the beauty of God in creation, they return to God and glorify him, and are united with him. These are the two movements of God towards creation, and then of creation towards God. And by these two movements, the unity between God and all creation is seen. So God is both Kalos and Agathos, He is good and beautiful, and these are Theonymyas, they are names of God. Names ascribed to God by men. But beyond the fact that man gives names to the energies of God, in which man participates, there exists at the same time the apophatic aspect, which is the gnophos, the thick dark cloud. So beyond that in which the saints do participate. There is something which cannot be approached.
SPEAKER_01And we call this Usia Essence.
“Gnophos” does not denote absence but superluminosity of God
SPEAKER_02The thick dark cloud, the superabundance of God's brilliance of the light of God. Naphos is not the absence of God. The thick dark cloud does not mean God is not present. It is not the darkness of God, it is the superabundant presence of God, which we experience as darkness because we are unable to see God's superluminosity and so it's blinding.
SPEAKER_01It blinds us.
Participation in the names of God, that is, in the energies of God
The source of “hierarchy” = the source of holiness - always exists
SPEAKER_02Now with Eerarchia, the sacred principle, which is developed in two of Dionysius' works in particular, the celestial hierarchy and the ecclesiastical hierarchy. Dionysius speaks of medohi in the participation in the names of God, which means participation in the energies of God.
SPEAKER_01Now the word Ierchia comes from the root word Eron and Archo, the verb Archo, which denote the source of holiness.
SPEAKER_02We typically use the term to denote order, the ordering or chain of command, and this meaning also exists in Dionysius. But please note that it is not the primary meaning of Iradhia. When Dionysius speaks of hierarchy, although order and ordering or a chain of command is also implicit, he employs the term firstly to refer to the higher ranks of the hierarchy, receiving the outpouring of the hierarchy. And then he refers to it as passing this on, transmitting it to the ranks below. And secondly, to the fact that the higher ranks attract the lower ranks by means of the two movements mentioned earlier, that is to say, the lower ranks are attracted by the middle ranks, and the middle ranks are attracted by the higher ranks, and they are all led up to God, to the beauty of God, of the source of deification. So the source of hierarchy, the source of holiness always exists, for it is the source of participation in the energy of God.
SPEAKER_01Dionysius says that the Archie and Usia of the whole hierarchy is God. And the hierarchy is the Theophania, the Theophany of the Go and the Beautiful. The hierarchy is the manifestation of God. These are synonyms, right?
The purpose of “hierarchy” is union with God = perfection
“Divine statues” (theia agalmata) - from agalomai
SPEAKER_02The good is God, the beautiful is God. The purpose of hierarchy is, Dionysius says, union with God. Scopos hierarchies estin oseficton aphomiosiste. So as far as it is possible, aphomiosis means it's almost like an absorption to be absorbed, to enter into this profound communion with God and Enosis. Actually, Dionysius often speaks in terms of Enosis, union with God, and he also speaks in terms of perfection in God. God, who is the hierarchy, makes his creatures who behold him divine statues. Fia agalmata. A statue in Greek is an agalma, agalmada being the plural. This is a word that comes from agalome. Agalome means I rejoice.
SPEAKER_01So I see and I rejoice.
Analogy of the sun’s rays passing through windows (cf. Gregory Palamas)
Participation commensurate with our receptiveness of the Beauty of the Hierarch
Hierarchy: Order (taxis), Divine Science or Sacred Knowledge (hiera epistime), Divine or Sacred Energy (hiera energeia)
The Divine Energy (Grace) makes us Godlike
The effect of Grace described variously: purifying energy, illuminating energy, perfecting energy
SPEAKER_02When Dionysius says the hierarchy makes his creatures who behold him divine statues, he's saying that they rejoice in beholding him. So the divine statues become mirrors of divine beauty. And through them passes, is transmitted the uncreated energy of God. And he gives, as an example, that of the sun's rays passing through windows. This is an image that Gregory Palamas uses much later. The thinner, cleaner windows, in other words, allow more sunlight in. These are more refined windows. These are the higher ranks. And the more the light, the more the joy. And they become divine statues, meaning we see them and we rejoice in seeing the divine light in them. So participation in the original light is commensurate with our receptiveness of the beauty of the hierarchy, who is the source of all holiness. And Dionysius says that hierarchy is three things. First you have order, daxis, that is to say, when God created the world, he gave it a certain order. God is the God of order, not chaos. God is the Daxyarchia, the God of order. And that order is related to a certain analogy. Then we have iera episteme, which means divine science. Epistemia is a word that Plato had used, others had used other philosophers. It simply comes from epistemia, which means I know well episteme and iera epistemic. Divine knowledge in Dionysius refers to that knowledge which each rank possesses in the hierarchy according to its level of participation in the hierarchy, in the one who gives order to the hierarchy, just as we have a different view of ourselves when we look in a mirror and when we look in a crystal. That's the image that's used. Then we have the Ierat Energy, which is divine energy. The hierarchy draws all creation to itself and makes it the God.
SPEAKER_01Grace. Depending on the effect of grace, it is called variously purifying energy, illuminating energy, perfecting energy.
Hierarchy: participation in God and sharing with others
SPEAKER_02So those are the three levels, so to speak, of hierarchy in Dionysius. Dakshi, that order related to a certain analogy, comes from the Therchiki Dakshi we've already said that. Epistemi, the knowledge of God comes from the Therchiki Epistemi and Energi is that purifying, illuminating perfecting grace, which comes from the Thearchiki Energia. Again, Energia to use the Erasmian pronunciation. So participation in the energies of God by analogy is called hierarchy. Let me just say a word about this. It's interesting, it's a spiritual law speaking of the higher ranks and the lower ranks, and we'll get into this a little bit later. But let me just say at this point, there is this desire when one participates in God. Is there not a desire when we receive the grace of God also to pass on to transmit the grace of God to others? It's a natural desire. It comes naturally. When we receive something from God, yes we receive it for ourselves, but not only for ourselves. God's will is for us to share, to share his love, to share his grace, to share his what he gives to us, to share them with others. I think that that's important in understanding the Dionysian notion of hierarchy.
SPEAKER_01And um yeah, as I said, we'll come back to that point in due course.
Triads - 9 ranks of angelic powers
Monastics (Therapeutae not Monachoi)
“Laos”, the people of God - state of illumination
Imperfect members of the Church - purification
Sacred Mysteries (hierae teletae): Baptism, Chrismation (myron), Eucharist
Christ’s Incarnation revealed the goodness and beauty of God on every level (including the physical)
“The divine wills” (ta theia thelemata), “the principles of beings” (hoi logooi ton onton), the energy (energeia) of God
SPEAKER_02So to close this introductory section, participation in the energies of God is what Ierar here in Dionysius is all about. He uses triads to convey a trinity of hypostases on one level, but not of the energy of God, of course. He refers to the angelic powers, it's Dionysius who gives us the nine ranks of angelic powers. Come back to that point later. One of the reasons why the Dionysian corpus is regarded as being a later body of writings is because he refers to monastics. But in fact when he does so, he's not referring to them by the usual terms Monachos Monarchizoi Monk monastic life in Greek. He doesn't use those terms. He uses the word therapefte, those who are well pleasing, which actually goes back to an earlier date in the history of the early church. So that's an interesting point as far as the dating of the corpus is concerned. We'll come back to that point as well. Laos the people. Dionysius regards the Laos of God, the people of God. When he speaks of the people of God, he speaks of a people of God who are in a state of illumination. This is quite shocking in some ways compared to the situation that we have today. It's rather challenging to say the least. The Laos, the people of God, often they know very little, thank God they come to church. And were it not for certain notable exceptions among our clergy and our hierarchy, our people are almost uncatechized. They're almost at the level of catechumens at best. So references to the people of God in Dionysius is quite striking, not a small detail, because he regards the Laos as being in a state of illumination and as progressing towards deification, perfection. It's a very challenging picture of the life of the church that he presents. He also refers to imperfect members of the church, those who are undergoing purification. Yeres de refers to the sacred mysteries, the sacraments, baptism, chrismation, miron, and the Eucharist, of course. He refers to the incarnation, Christ revealed the goodness and beauty of God to attract men to Himself on every level, including the physical, so even physically, He fills creation with Himself, He fills us with Himself physically by means of the physical divine Eucharist. And all of this reveals to us the Thelimata, the divine wills wills in the plural, it's interesting.
The world which comes after the Fall (Ho ektos tis hierarchias kosmos - meta tin ptosin)
SPEAKER_01The divine wills Illogiton Ienergatu the pre existent principles of all beings the energy of God.
Conclusion to Introduction & purpose of these presentations
Vladimir Lossky (1903 – 1958) - Polycarp Sherwood (1912 – 1969)
The air we breathe in the West is Augustinian and philosophical (intellectualistic)
The Orthodox reception of Dionysius
The language of Dionysius
“Mystical theology” - “apophatic” theology based on experience
Preeminence of reason in the West (cf. Augustine 354-430, Descartes 1596-1650, Enlightenment late 1600s)
Suspicion of knowledge based on experience
SPEAKER_02One final note so there is the world which comes after the fall and which does not participate in God's divine wills, the energies of God, the logo of all things. Oictos Cosmos or Cosmos Medatinctosi. By reading the mystical theology, we're going to come, I believe, to a deeper understanding of Dionysius' theological vision. So I make no bones about it. What I am attempting to do is to present Dionysius as he has come down to us through Maximus and Palamas, as I mentioned earlier. So there are questions, and of course that's understandable, given the language that Dionysius employs, very philosophical. And of course, in the West, this is how he's understood. He's read and he's analyzed and regarded as a Platonist, Neoplatonist, philosophying theologian, a philosopher in Christian guise. In fact, I remember when I was reading Dionysius for my doctoral studies at Oxford, I was looking to find respected scholarship that did not present Dionysius in this sort of philosophical tradition, which is common in the West. And it was very difficult, apart from Loske, who had written, of course, The Mystical Theology, deliberately so titled, and before he had written his mystical theology, he had written two significant articles on Dionysius, one was on Dionysius's use of analogy, and I was um stunned by well, Loskey was a big enough name not to be ignored entirely by Western scholarship, but he was almost entirely ignored. And when he was mentioned in this or that book or article on Dionysius, he was dismissed. Probably the person who took him most seriously was Polycarp Sherwood, who actually specialized in Maximus the Confessor, and gives Losky some credit in raising certain questions. Yeah, long story short, the air that we breathe in the West, just as we have an Augustinian oxygen that we breathe, also carries with it this understanding, this uh approach to Dionysius. But you see, in the Orthodox tradition, irrespective of the provenance of the corpus itself, and the identification of the authorship, irrespective of that, the Dionysian writings are regarded as the product of a man of prayer and a man of the liturgical tradition of the church. This I find a refreshing and encouraging approach. Now, the question of why he uses this kind of language, let me just say in passing, let's assume that Dionysius is a disciple of Saint Paul. Where did St. Paul convert him? On Mars Hill. The place was full of Epicureans and Stoics, and these were philosophers listening to Saint Paul, who couldn't bear it when St. Paul started to speak of the resurrection, the physical resurrection of the body. And uh one of them was Dionysius and others with him. So the question is: who is Dionysius writing for? Because when you're writing for a particular group of persons, you want to speak a language which they will understand. So you will use terms, concepts, phraseology that is familiar to them in order to convey what you want to convey. The question is, what is the substance? What is the meaning of your use of their terms? So I think that this is what we're going to attempt to uncover as we go along. When we say mystical theology, we don't mean some exotic form of theology that's fine if you like that kind of thing. Mystical theology means that theology which is an initiation into the mysteries of God. And this is why such great fathers as Maximus, very well versed in philosophy, takes Dionysius very seriously. And one of the things that we're going to discover along the way is the use of the term apophatic. It's based on experience, that knowledge of God which is born of experience. And the problem is that in the West there is nothing beyond reason now. There was something beyond reason with Augustine. I keep saying to be fair to Saint Augustine, because he at least was aware of the nous, the noetic aspect of man. But certainly after Descartes and the Enlightenment, you have this now fixation on reason, and there is nothing beyond reason. So that when we say apophatic, there are two ways by which we can understand apophatic. The first is almost taking it literally as a kind of jeu de mot playing on words where you just quite easily say what something is not, in this case God. God is not this, God is not that. We can all play that game. And I guess philosophers can play that game on a on a more sophisticated level, but it's the same game. Then there's that apophaticism to which Dionysius refers, which is the product of genuine living experience of God, which leads one to say that for example, yes, we say that God is light, but when we say that God is light, the light of God is not what we mean when we refer to other forms of light, the light of the sun, the light produced by fire, electric light we have today, and so on and so forth. This light is other. This light goes beyond. And it's beyond our understanding. It's beyond our experience of the created order. That's why it's apophatic. So these two ways of using the term apophatic and the apophaticism of Dionysius is certainly on that experiential level. Now, in the West, understandably, there has been a kind of suspicion that has grown up with people who claim to have experiences. But these experiences and the suspicions that go with them, sometimes justifiably so, they belong to another culture and to another tradition. That is not what we mean when we speak of experience of God, and so on and so forth. So, yeah, more to be unpacked, certainly, in due course. Please subscribe to our channel and share with your friends. Click on the notification bell and on the join button below our video, and become a friend or reader of the Mount Tabor Academy. Support our drive to introduce the theology and spiritual life of the Orthodox Church to the wider community.